I Don't Even Like Women: The Truth Behind Our Female Friendships with Natalie Runion

Ever wondered why church hurt cuts deeper than almost any other kind of pain? Natalie Runion doesn't just understand this phenomenon—she's lived it, studied it, and found a way through it without abandoning her faith or the church she loves.

Growing up as a pastor's kid in Cincinnati's charismatic circles, Natalie witnessed firsthand how devastating church hurt can be when her parents experienced it during her senior year. This pivotal moment steered her away from seminary and into public university, where she eventually found her own ministry path through Campus Crusade for Christ and worship leading. Now, as the voice behind "Raised to Stay," she speaks with disarming honesty about the tension between loving an imperfect church and experiencing wounds from the very community meant to offer healing.

What makes this conversation truly exceptional is Natalie's nuanced take on different types of church pain. She draws a critical distinction between abuse (something that happens to us against our will, often from positions of power) and offense (something we choose to pick up and carry). This framework offers listeners a fresh way to process their own church experiences and discern appropriate responses. Her insights on helping teenagers navigate church hurt—acknowledging the reality without villainizing the entire global church—provide practical wisdom for parents wrestling with how to guide the next generation.

The heart of our discussion explores Natalie's upcoming book "I Don't Even Like Women," unpacking the surprising phenomenon of women in church leadership who struggle with female friendships. She dives into the competitive dynamics, tribalism, and "savior complex" that often plague women's ministry, offering generous and grace-filled strategies for building authentic sisterhood even amid these challenges. Her perspective that "generosity is the grand antidote to competition" provides a powerful alternative to the defensiveness that often characterizes female relationships in ministry settings.

Whether you're wrestling with church disappointment, struggling to build meaningful female friendships, or simply trying to understand why staying faithful sometimes feels so difficult, Natalie's story offers both comfort and challenge. Follow her at @raisedtostay on Instagram and watch for her new book releasing this September—it promises to open conversations we've all wanted to have but haven't known how to start.

Pre-order Natalie's Book here: https://a.co/d/0qMEoQi

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Natalie Runyon
• 6:30 Natalie's Faith Journey and Ministry
• 14:40 Navigating Church Hurt and Staying
• 24:10 Differentiating Offense from Abuse
• 30:35 Helping Youth Process Church Hurt
• 37:10 "I Don't Even Like Women" Book Discussion
• 44:20 Female Friendship Challenges in Church

Transcript

Gianina: 0:00

Welcome back to the walkthrough podcast, where we get honest about life's valleys and victories and what it means to walk with God right in the middle of them. I'm your host, Gianina, along with my beautiful friend Kiley, and today I'm so excited to sit down with Natalie Runion. Many of you know her as the voice behind Race to Stay. Natalie's honesty, humor and heart for the church have encouraged thousands, especially those who've wrestled with disappointment, deconstruction and hurt inside faith spaces. Today we're diving into her story, her upcoming book I Don't Even Like Women, and how God is calling us to something deeper, even when it's hard. Well, I'm super excited to have our amazing guest on. So welcome, Natalie. Thank you so much for hopping on tonight. You look lovely and it's always it's always so cool to see all of your I think I've told you this like you have such cool personality that comes out in your clothes and appearance and everything that you do, and you're actually someone that I go to for fashion sense.

Gianina: 1:01

So well thank you, it's good to be with you guys. Yeah, I'm super excited. So, for those people that aren't familiar with you, I would love for you to just share a little bit about yourself and your background and just kind of how you came to know the Lord and anything in your story that you'd like to share.

Natalie: 1:19

Yeah, so I'm Natalie Runion. I live in Kentucky, which isn't too far from you guys. I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio, as a pastor's kid and was raised in the charismatic church, lived in church parsonages. I got saved when I was seven I remember it and lived my entire childhood in public schools being a pastor's kid and just really grew up in a very Midwestern, religious, you know, god-fearing part of the country and fell in love with the church as a result of my parents loving the church and I went to a public university majored in science. I just didn't want to be in the thing that my parents had done my whole life.

Natalie: 1:56

But I found Campus Crusade for Christ on campus and it was such a beautiful way for me to find my own ministry and so I started being a worship leader for them and that was during all of the outpouring of like, all of the outdoor festivals like Igthus and Passion.

Natalie: 2:13

Louis Giglio had just started his ministry, taking Kristi, knuckles and all of those groups Tomlin and Crowder out, and so I fell in love with 90s worship that pure hearted, no social media, no YouTube, and really that's how I introed back into ministry, was as a worship leader in the early 2000s and did that for about 20 years. And then, when I was around 40, we had moved our family to Colorado to be part of a large megachurch out there and ended up becoming their women's pastor. And so did that and raised this day the ministry that I have now, which is really for people who have wrestled with their relationship with the church but want to stay with Jesus. That was birth. Out of that season. I retired from church staff for a little bit and now we move back to Kentucky with my husband who's gosh? We've been married 18 years now, two daughters who are almost 13 and 16. And really that's our hope is just that we would continue to introduce people to a God who reconciles His church and His people back to each other.

Gianina: 3:15

Yeah, that's so good and I know, just following all of your posts in your social media over the last few years, there's just such an authenticity and I know that comes at a cost and that comes with the story and just from living it, and not necessarily something you've read or something you've seen, but you can just tell, and everything that you share, that you have a story and something that you've lived through and walked through. And one of the things that we've talked a lot on the podcast so far is there have been people who have gone through church hurt and I know I mean really if you've been in the church for any amount of time in any leadership capacity, because we're all human, it's easy to be offended by something and to get hurt by something. And I know one of the things that someone taught me kind of earlier on as I was doing ministry is the closer you get to the inside, the more you're going to see the flaws, and so that's something that I've had to kind of navigate. But if you would be willing to just share a little bit of what that has looked like for you you don't have to necessarily share specifics on what happened to kind of cause some of that hurt and some of like.

Gianina: 4:22

Why are you passionate? Why is this something that you're passionate about? Why did you want to leave? Why is it something that? Why is this your platform?

Natalie: 4:32

Well, I always say, if you love something for very long, there is a very good likelihood you will be hurt by it. And I think that for a lot of us who were raised in the church, we were a little bit naive, especially in the 80s and 90s, where there wasn't social media, there wasn't a lot of other churches, that we knew what was happening. We didn't know if a pastor fell, we didn't know if there was a moral failure. You know there was an innocence to that and I think this whole deconstruction church hurt movement. While I believe it is good and that we are seeing poor behavior, abusive behavior, narcissistic behavior being exposed at levels that are actually saving people's lives, it can also create a skepticism and a cynicism in something that God has created. His church is his idea and for me you know really, being a pastor's kid, I had so much hope in the church and I watched my own parents walk through a pretty devastating hurt my senior year of high school, which is why I didn't go to seminary, it's why I didn't go to a Christian college, and really my whole point was like God, these are your people. No, thank you. I'm treated better by my non-Christian friends than I am by church friends and I think that's really disorienting, especially for people who didn't have pastors as parents, who didn't grow up in this. They think why would I want to be part of something that is so dysfunctional when I can find that in the world? And so, rather than heal, explore other faith communities, explore other leadership, a lot of people just quit and they just walk away because that's easier than getting hurt again, and I don't blame people. This is like the worst kind of hurt is church hurt, because we should know better, the church should know better. And so for me personally, when I was around 40 and really struggling with this whole idea of like God, why is it that every time I try to be involved with your people, I get wounded?

Natalie: 6:25

And Raised to Stay was birthed out of that season of me asking that question like is it okay if I just quit? I don't know what the point is of me staying. You've got all kinds of other people who can do this. I just want to show up and be an attender on Sunday mornings like everybody else. And Raised to Stay was birthed out of that, with John 15 really being the flagship scripture of if you'll just remain with me, if you'll stay with me, if you'll tarry with me, then I'll remain in you and then, as a result of that, you'll produce good fruit. And as I stayed and didn't quit just because it was hard, I wasn't being abused, I wasn't being hurt or wounded, I was being challenged and the Lord was allowing it. As I stayed, good fruit did become part of my story, and that was in the form of a ministry that's now having a global presence, which is an honor, but I think for all of us, I hope that's a testimony that if we remain in Him, he remains in us and produces good fruit.

Gianina: 7:21

Yeah, and it's so good to remember that any of us can be the offender as well.

Gianina: 7:27

I was actually at a women's conference a couple months ago and one of them said something that was just transforming is, you know, we listen to stories like David and Goliath and we automatically think we're David and there's this big Goliath that we have to fight, and sometimes we're Goliath, sometimes we're a bystander, sometimes we're David's brothers and so we're Goliaths, sometimes we're a bystander, sometimes we're David's brothers, and so we just really have to see ourselves in all of those situations.

Gianina: 7:49

And I think that when I mean, I think back to how many times I probably hurt somebody and offended somebody along the journey as well, and that's really humbling too. But how do you differentiate between being hurt and offended and abuse? Because I think we kind of grew up in the same era where I mean I grew up where, the more that you take, you're being holy. You know what I mean. Like if I take somebody neglecting me or being rude to me or being condescending towards me, if I can take it and take it to the Lord and just let it go, then I'm more holy than somebody who speaks up against it. So how do you kind of differentiate between those things?

Natalie: 8:36

Yeah, it's like the persecuted church, like you know, it's like our badge of honor is that we've been wounded, and I think that, yes, there's some natural persecution that will come to us as Christians, but it shouldn't be at the hands of fellow Christians, and I think that that is one of the reasons why Jesus, the disciples and Paul were so hard on the Pharisees and went so hard at them, john the Baptist, because they knew the religious people were probably going to be a bigger problem than the sinners at the end of the day. And so I just I feel like for a lot of us we have to understand there's a difference between something happening to us against our will. So abuse is something that happens to us. We can't stop it, we can't control it. It's sexual, physical, emotional, spiritual. It's usually at a power differential, where it's coming from someone who is over us, an authority whom we have been told touch not god's anointed ones. We have been told they know what's best for us. It goes down to like daddy hits me because he loves me, kind of thing, where we're like this is just part of, you know, this is part of my experience as being an intern and no, none of that is true.

Natalie: 9:45

Abuse, especially spiritual abuse, can be hard to define if it's not blatantly sexual or physical. But these are things that are happening to you. It's words that are being spoken over you to crush your spirit and break your heart. It's people using scripture to justify toxic, narcissistic behavior that is ruining your life ultimately, and changing the course and making you feel as if you have no anointing and power. It's really taking away from things that God has given to you, whereas offense is something that we choose to pick up.

Natalie: 10:15

And this is something that we not only choose to pick up, but we ask others to carry it with us. And that's why offense is this double edge sin, because it's not only a sin on our end for picking it up, but it's a sin for placing it on another person and saying aren't you mad at that pastor too? You should be mad at them too, because you don't know what they did to me and I'm sure they're doing it to you. And so offense becomes divisive, it becomes controversial, it becomes gossip, whereas abuse most of the time abuse victims are not talking about their abuse, they're hiding, they're in shame, they're in fear, whereas offense is loud and bold and prideful, and I had to really search my heart. I just did a post that said, what if I told you some of my church hurt was my fault? Because I think that offense really played a huge part in why I wasn't able to heal as quickly from some of the things that I encountered, especially in my older years of ministry, when I should have known better.

Kiley: 11:14

Can I ask, when we get to a certain age, when we've had some life behind us, we can think about a situation usually maybe not in the moment, but we can think more clearly about it and so, with the race, to say, if you just stay in it, stay with God, stay the course and I'll bless you through that how would you navigate? You have teenagers now, so how would you navigate having your own child maybe go through something when their brains are still developing anyway and they can't think beyond that? What would you say to parents who are maybe, or I don't know how many young people listen to this podcast? But if there is somebody young listening to it, like, how how would you help somebody of a younger age maybe navigate church bird or something that has happened where they still they still want to be there for God? But it's just this, like this wrestling between the two.

Natalie: 12:12

Yeah, I mean, you have to remember like there is no junior Holy Spirit. So our kids are very much discerning. They are very much aware of the things that their parents are talking about behind closed doors. They know when something's amok in the church. They're very aware when a leader is off.

Natalie: 12:29

And one thing that I tell parents and we've done this with our kids is that we never try to defend the church First of all. God doesn't need us to defend His church, and if there is a youth pastor that is out of line, if there is a pastor who's behaving poorly, we don't sugarcoat that and we don't try to make excuses for it. We have the conversations with our nine-year-old, with our 13-year-old. Now they're much older, but even now there's been some scandal around some older church that we were part of, and one of the little girls who still attends there called my daughter to just like process through because her parents are still on staff there, and you know we don't try to shut that down. They need to be able to process it too in their little minds, and so we just say, hey, as long as they're not giving misinformation and creating chaos outside of that, we want them to have safe places to unpack what's happening in their lives and what they're seeing their parents go through.

Natalie: 13:29

So I think, one, we don't defend the church.

Natalie: 13:30

Two, we definitely try to bring as much restoration and hope in saying that, yeah, it might've been happening here, but it's not happening everywhere.

Natalie: 13:34

We don't villainize the entire global church based off of what one or two bad experiences inform us of.

Natalie: 13:42

And finally, I think we have to let our kids come to their own conclusions. I don't ever want to look at my child and be the definitive God answer in their life, and so, with my kids at the age right now where one's going to be a junior in high school, she's coming to me and saying, hey, I want to be, you know, really involved with Young Life this year and I really want to be involved with Fellowship of Christian Athletes, which might not allow her to be in her youth group. And so we're asking her OK, pray through this. Like which one is it that God is inviting you into, because you can't be at three places at the same time. And so really putting that ball in their court and saying you hear from God too, like if you feel comfortable with these people, if you feel like this is where God wants you, then we trust that God is moving. We're still your parents, we can still yay or nay things, but we really want them to have autonomy when it comes to some of these things. Okay, that's so good.

Gianina: 14:35

Well, I'm excited to chat a little bit about your new upcoming book. This is a topic that I love because I was one of those. I feel, like Kylie, you've always had strong girlfriends and you have like so many. I am like so jealous of the long term friendships that you've had and I don't really have a lot of women friends that I've been friends with for more than 10 years and, looking back, it's because I was always that guy's girl that I was friends with all the guys and my bad Javara was like I just don't get along with girls, I just get along with guys better.

Gianina: 15:14

And so this is a topic and now I do have a lot more female friends. I think once you get married, that kind of shifts a little bit. You know, I'm not going to be friends with all the guys while I'm married and I have a lot more girlfriends, but I still really struggle with deep female relationships and, crazy enough, especially in the church. And so I'm excited to kind of chat about this. If you don't mind sharing a little bit about your vision with this book, the title and how you came up with that this is your new job and I'm grateful because the pastor at the time he saw I had a teaching gift.

Natalie: 16:11

I didn't see it yet, but clearly he was hearing from the Lord, and so I can't be angry about this transition now, but in the moment I was livid and I really felt like God bait and switched me. He had moved us this far away. Now I'm being moved out of my favorite thing to something that I never said, that I ever wanted to do, and it took me the entire time being that women's pastor of those eight congregations over those people, to really truly fall in love with women in a way where I was literally brokenhearted over them and I wanted to see them succeed. I wanted families to be restored, and that was a process. Now, when I resigned and I started traveling the world speaking at women's conferences, I would get picked up from the airport by women who were on staff pastor's wives and I would say, hey, how did you get into this position as women's director or whatever they were called? And nine times out of 10, they would say I don't know, I don't really even like women, I'm just, you know, this is where I find myself and I kept thinking, you know, for this to be a common, universal, global, like saying we need to like actually talk more about this.

Natalie: 17:18

And so I went to my publisher and said I think this is book three. They thought I was insane. Thankfully, I've had two other books to prove that I kind of know what I'm doing. And so they agreed to let me call it this, as long as we came up with a subtitle, which is and other lies that get in the way of sacred sisterhood, that would redeem it to a positive spin. And so, really, this book is saying look, we all say this common phrase, but what are we actually saying when we're saying it?

Kiley: 17:44

look, we all say this common phrase, but what are we actually saying when we're saying it? I think it's funny, janina, that you mentioned that, because I, natalie, when I started reading this, I had that visceral like oh gosh, the cafeteria, the Halloween costume, all of that. And I mean I, growing up in school, I did not have a lot of girlfriends. I had. I did hang out with a lot of guys. I had maybe two or three really close girlfriends and the group of friends that that, janina, you see me talking about now all came after my college. Some of them the big group of them, I always say I wiggled my way in because they were all my sister's friends first, and I'm three years younger than her and now we're all just together.

Kiley: 18:36

But it's interesting that the there I don't have a lot of like girlfriends that I've made through the church. So why do you think it is so difficult for females to have that fruitful friendship, especially women of faith, like I know? You mentioned competition and comparison, and are those just the main reasons, or do you think that there's something else deeper there?

Natalie: 19:07

I think we all have this innate desire to be wanted and to be included and to be involved. But there are so many scripts that have been written over us since we were little girls that by the time we hit adulthood and we're starting new jobs, which has its own insecurities, and we're looking for our future husbands, which have their own insecurities. And then we are marrying and trying to have children. Some of us can, some of us are not as able to, and there's all of this life stress that then piles on things like competition and comparison and all of this. And so I think those scripts follow us from the playground where we're not able to play with people who don't look like us or aren't as popular or whatever. Those all translate and then they sort of combust in our 20s and 30s to a point where a lot of women just choose to isolate and say you know what? I don't have it in me to search for this.

Natalie: 20:00

I think we're also very tribal. I think that once we find our people, we can be very exclusive. We're also very tribal. I think that once we find our people, we can be very exclusive. I know that, especially in the Christian college environment, that if a bunch of you that went to the same Christian college all end up at the same church. Good luck busting into that.

Natalie: 20:19

Christian sorority culture is worse than any public sorority culture I've ever been part of, and to the point where I've joined church staff before and introduced myself to the wives of those I'd be like serving beside, and I've gotten texts before that says no thanks, I have enough friends and you know, and it's that tribalism, it's that like no, you can't sit with us at 30 and 40. That really, I think not only impacts very confident women like myself, but if you can imagine me, I'm 30 and 40. That really, I think not only impacts very confident women like myself, but if you can imagine me, I'm like an outgoing extrovert. I don't require a lot. Imagine that single mom or that woman who's never tried a women's event before or coming in the door and to get that kind of reception would absolutely terrify them and make them never want to come back.

Natalie: 21:04

So, as Christian women, I think you pile on the world scripts along with some of our other Christian-ese things that have happened to us, and it's a perfect recipe for us to become very strong cliques that just go with us into our 50s, 60s and 70s, until we just kind of either end up alone or we end up in the same echo chamber we started in in our 20s, janina, I remember when we first moved here. We just kind of either end up alone or we end up in the same echo chamber we started in in our twenties.

Kiley: 21:27

Janina, I remember when we first moved here, that was one of the first things you actually said to me with making friends, because that was one that I think anytime anybody moves somewhere, the hardest thing is leaving their family and friends. And like, how am I going to, how am I going to meet new people? And she was saying, you know, just don't, am I going to, how am I going to meet new people? And she was saying, you know, just don't, just don't be surprised if you see these groups of women that will literally say no, thanks, I have enough friends. And it's not because I don't think it's because they want to be mean, I think they're just so comfortable with the familiar and they, you know, it's like, no, that's okay, not thinking about who it's affecting.

Natalie: 22:08

On the other end, yeah, and a lot of them have not.

Natalie: 22:12

A lot of Christian women have grown up or at least spent their after college years and on in the same churches because their husbands are on staff, whatever the circumstances, so they've never had to be the uncomfortable new girl.

Natalie: 22:26

And I think for those of us who've had to move like they've never had to be the uncomfortable new girl, and I think for those of us who've had to move like my children have had to move schools twice they're very familiar with having to make new friends and be the new kid.

Natalie: 22:38

I think that everybody in church should have to feel like the new kid once or twice, to really feel that tension of walking into a foyer all by yourself or a women's group or a conference and having to find someone who about looks your age which you know our moms all did that right Like we'd be in line for VBS, go talk to her. She looks about your age or whatever. Like that doesn't float anymore when you're in your twenties, thirties and forties, mostly because we can't tell how old people are anymore, but also because, like I actually would rather hang out with some women in their fifties and sixties who have survived this a lot longer than I have. So really we almost have to shift our mentality when we walk into churches, when we're standing in church foyers to say who looks like they could really use a hello or a hug or a welcome from me, and we need to be what we need and that can be hard when you're insecure.

Gianina: 23:29

I think one of the things that really helped me I'm not on our greeting team, which always surprises people, because I'm, like you, very extroverted and outgoing, but I think it's because I don't like being assigned to one station, I just like going everywhere and talking to everybody. But one of the things someone said is you know, you don't have to have the capacity to be friends with everybody who walks in the door, but you can be a connector. So if you're welcoming to somebody and they're interested in golfing, you can say oh my gosh, my friend Jessica loves golfing too. I'm going to connect you guys. So just because you're a welcoming face to somebody and you may not have the capacity to be 500 people's best friend that walked in on a Sunday morning, but you can connect them to other people. That's always hugely beneficial too.

Gianina: 24:22

But one thing I wanted just to take some time and ask you because this is something that I struggle with a lot so this is me getting vulnerable is I don't generally feel like I compete with other women. I'm a fairly confident person, but I feel like I'm constantly being competed with, like women kind of. Maybe it's because I am confident and strong and outgoing and whatever, but I genuinely just want to be friends with everyone and cheer everybody on and I want to see everybody succeed and do what God has called them to do. But I feel like when I try to make friendships with women who are in that same boat, a lot of times I feel like they're trying to push me down or they're being competitive with me. And how do you navigate that like that competitiveness in church? Because obviously it's there, but how do you?

Natalie: 25:19

deal with that. It's so interesting because I even hear myself like saying these things to my kids. Like my daughter will come home and say this girl has been really competitive with me in volleyball or whatever. And here's what my instinct is to say is oh honey, she's just jealous of you. Like they're just jealous. Well, here's what that does.

Natalie: 25:37

It makes my daughter feel like she has to dumb down or dull her shine to not be the target of another woman's insecurity, and I don't want that for my daughter. I don't want her to feel like, in order for her to have friendship with this girl who's clearly got something going on in her life that she can't be exactly who God has made her to be. Now that doesn't mean we don't need self-regulation and emotional IQ, but I shouldn't have to not be a good athlete or not get good grades or have a bestselling book because somebody in my peer group is threatened or whatever. But when we say women are jealous, what we're doing is we're telling the other girl like you just need to not be so loud or so bold or so bright so that you don't ruffle her feathers. No, actually, these women need to own up to their assignment. They need to focus on their own race and I am not going to be collateral damage to their dysfunction and that takes a lot. This takes a lot on social media. It takes a lot because I'll have people say well, you didn't even have a very big platform when you started Raised to Stay, how'd you get a bestseller book? I know these things are being said and so much of it is out of my control. It's the Holy Spirit, it's the Lord, it's Him offering favor. And how do you give credit to something you can't see In their minds? Well, you must have a famous father or you must be working for a megachurch. It's all these excuses.

Natalie: 27:01

We hear Taylor Swift talk about this all the time that when all of her songs started getting Grammys, people assumed there was some guy, that was some ghostwriter, writing her music, because surely a woman couldn't have this many hits. And so we have to remember we have, as women, not only men who think we can't do it, but our own sisters who think we can't do it, and so I've had to really just put my head down, and when I am friends with people who I can feel are starting to get in that competitive state with me, I have learned that generosity is the grand, greatest antidote, that the minute that I become generous with my platform, the minute that I start speaking words of life over their thing that they're working on, and I start to combat that because I can sense it it goes away instantly because now they're not seeing me as a competition, but they're a collaborator. And this takes a lot of self-control and it makes you have to crucify your flesh because everything in you wants to say you're just jealous, but actually that's probably not true. There is something broken inside of that person that makes them feel like you're a competitor, and this is where we have to start using the word of God. We have to start digging into our identity in Christ and just trusting that the Lord will give us ways to encourage them and speak life over them, even when they're kind of being jerks in our space.

Natalie: 28:22

And I've been there, though. I've been the jealous friend, I've been the one wondering how did they hit that list and how did they do that? And I have to correct myself all the time, and so I am. I am like offender number one over here.

Kiley: 28:35

Yeah. So if, if someone is listening that has thought like, hey, I've, I've been hurt by women or yes, I have been the one that's been withdrawn, what kind of encouragement would you give them?

Natalie: 28:50

You're not alone. I mean, we're all swinging by the seat of our pants in this. Listen, I don't have a gaggle of girls that I do girls weekends with. I have like five women that I can call on any given day and be like hey, can you just pray for me? This is going on. I don't do coffee dates every day with women. I'm not like having sleepovers and braiding people's hair Like I'm a busy woman with children. You are not alone.

Natalie: 29:13

But at the same time, when I step foot through my church for your doors, there are women looking for me and I'm looking for women, and that is something that I look forward to. After I've had a week of momming hard and travel and writing, I look forward to seeing these women, whom I may not be best friends with, but who make me smile and who make me laugh and who encourage me. And then if I get a random text from one of them that says hey, can you meet for coffee? Sometimes I can and sometimes I can't, and that's okay. We just need to find people in our small groups, in our playdate groups, in our jobs, even if they're not believers.

Natalie: 29:50

And I think, as Christian women, we think well, I can't hang out with non-Christians. You absolutely need to be hanging out with non-Christians because there is a different kind of a sisterhood that comes with working beside people that may not know Jesus but who trust you, because they will know Jesus, because they know you, and so just looking for it in unconventional places. Some of the best people I've met have been in the grocery store line and we've made friends through Instagram and they send me words of encouragement all the time and we've not seen each other since that grocery store line. So I think we think it has to look like it did when we were 15 and it's not. It's not going to look like that. So just be committed.

Natalie: 30:29

One of my favorite pastors says that community comes to the committed Like if you want community, you're going to have to commit to it, and that means putting your heart on the line. It really does, um, but I haven't regretted that, um. But again, I'm not running around with a bunch of girls having, like, putting on sequined dresses and going out and, you know, having parties on Friday nights like, well, not college.

Kiley: 30:52

I'm glad that you mentioned that because I found myself thinking the other day you know, we're on social media so much and we see all these reels of all these girlfriends doing these things together and like the funny videos or the when I I I have connected with people here, but of course I still have a lot of my heart in California where all of my other friends are and stuff, and so I find myself comparing like well, how come, how come I I don't do those videos with people and how come I don't do this? Or how come? And what would you, what would you say to me to encourage me out of that like comparison stage, because social media is it's great for some things and it's really not great for other things, and it just kind of makes me, and possibly, I'm sure, other people, it makes me kind of sad that I don't have, you know, that particular thing you know to do with somebody.

Natalie: 31:53

Well, I mean, you have to remember that this is what these are highlight reels, right, like it's not everyday life. And we know, we know this. Now let's let's not discredit the fact that there might be some moms that are out every weekend having wine and cheese night and they have babysitters and they can do that, okay, but the average woman, my guess is, probably gets away to see her friends. I get to go to Colorado to see my girlfriends and when I do, I spend a lot of very concentrated time with those individuals and we're in different outfits and we're at different venues and we're taking videos and taking photos and I might share that one week of all of that over the course of a year.

Natalie: 32:32

And for someone who doesn't know me, they might see that and think, oh man, every night Natalie is with a different group of friends or the same group of friends.

Natalie: 32:42

They must just be together all the time, when really it was a week that I'm still posting six weeks down the line, or it's a vacation or a special trip, but we aren't in these people's everyday lives to know is this something that they do every week or is this something that was on a summer vacation?

Natalie: 32:58

So what I tell people is I'm like, first of all, there are some people you're going to have to unfollow because I honestly have had to do it out of just my own heart and my own like jealousy, but I've had to bless and block because I'm like I just can't keep up with this. Also, I would say that if that's something that you desire and this is something that I've had to really ask myself, do I have capacity to have a group of five women in this stage of my life right now who I would call up to want to go to get a steak dinner and take the time to put my extensions in my fake eyelashes and go down just for some highlight reels? The truth is no. I'd rather be in my sweats in my house with a cup of coffee and that person with me one-on-one. That's not Instagram worthy.

Kiley: 33:47

Yeah, and and not feeling like you have to post it no. Because I do that a lot. I have a lot of moments with my girlfriends here, and even when I do go visit my other friends, we're not spending all of that time making videos and doing like. We're just spending time with each other and that's yeah, we'll take pictures here and there, but we're not like trying to create content.

Natalie: 34:12

We cannot keep up with Gen Z. They are of a different world and I have no intention of highlighting all of the things of my day for people to scrutinize. I'm kind of like, don't worry about it. If it's worthy of being posted, I'll post about it, but assume that I don't have my extensions in. I'm in workout clothes, dressed like Adam Sandler. You just need to assume that you fly every day unless you see something different.

Gianina: 34:31

Yeah, that's so funny. I wanted to ask because I know you were in women's ministry for a long time and I recently just came across a post that said women's ministry isn't necessary because it is separating the unity of the church. Blah, blah, blah. And it was my first time ever reading that perspective and I still haven't quite processed it. But I would love to hear your opinion. Since you've been in it. Do you feel like it's a necessary part?

Natalie: 35:01

of the church. I think it depends on the mission and vision of your church, because I will say that there are some churches that do not need it. They are very heavy in small group communities that are for gender specific or married couples or with kids, without kids, young married, old married. I mean there are some churches that are so well constructed around the small group model that you don't need more events for people to go to. I also think that churches have to ask themselves is women's ministry, men's ministry, any ministry, a sacred cow? Is it something that is no longer producing good fruit? We're just doing it because that's what they've been doing for the last 75 to 100 years, and we've just adopted women's ministry as something that we must do, but it's not producing any good fruit, and so I think every church has to do a really strong inventory on not just women's ministry but any program that is requiring time, talent and treasure of its volunteers and its staff. So that's my first thing.

Natalie: 35:59

Second of all, I think that women's ministry has to be seen as a resource of the church and not the source, and I have been part of churches before where women's ministry took just as much energy out of the staff doing one night a week with a full band, full worship, full table set up and everything, and people were exhausted and we were thinking, gosh, in four days these people are going to come into the sanctuary and receive this exact kind of word, with the same type of energy.

Natalie: 36:29

Why is it that we're treating women's ministry like it's a source and a replacement than a supplement to what's actually happening in the church? And so I get it that if you have a high controlling women's pastor or a pastor's wife who just has to have control of something, women's ministry can become very toxic and unhealthy, and that's why it has to really come down to the church, to the leadership, to make sure that that thing is not becoming an idol in the house and it's actually serving the people in the way that best suits the mission and vision of the church.

Gianina: 37:03

Yeah, that's so good. That best suits the mission and vision of the church. That's so good. I think one of the things I found we were doing like a night at church where there was a bunch of women and we were all going around saying the different areas of the church that we serve in and I was just shocked how many women were like I'm on this team and this team and this team and this team and this team and just 500 different teams and it just obviously they have a heart to serve and a heart to love people.

Gianina: 37:32

But it's kind of that whole idol thing. At what point is it an idol? I just remember thinking in that moment how much more impactful we would all be if we picked one. There's a hundred of us in a room, say, for example. If we each picked one ministry to give a hundred percent to, versus 10 ministries to give 20% to, that one ministry is going to thrive so much more. And gosh, I hate that. As women, we feel that way, that we feel the need to do so many things, and I think some of it comes down to value. Everybody wants to feel valued, everyone wants to feel like they have a place, and whether it's relationships, women's ministry, just friendships, whatever it is. But I do wish that we wouldn't feel the need to spread ourselves so thin and to feel belonging or to feel purpose, and I don't think that that's something that the Holy Spirit would necessarily want us to do either, you know, because then we lose sight of the important thing, which is just loving people and serving God.

Natalie: 38:39

So totally. I mean, you think about it, in a normal church there are 20% of the people doing 80% of the work. That's pretty much the breakdown. So a small church you could have five women basically running the whole thing in some capacities, and what that does is it gives them a false sense of power, and this is how we have the silos. This is where we have unchecked power. Where there can be bullying and gossip is when these women are given too much control over multiple areas of the church and they become irreplaceable.

Natalie: 39:12

And what we have to do in our churches is get it to a place where there's at least a 50% attrition when it comes to who's serving, so that people really are being asked to pick one, pick your favorite thing.

Natalie: 39:24

We have it covered. You know we're not desperate and this way people can't take ownership of anything that is really God's and women have this savior complex. A lot of them grew up in homes where it was fight or flight. They needed to raise their siblings, they had broken homes and they translate that dysfunctional leadership into the church and then they lead from that place of trauma versus leading from a place of healing and they think only they can fix this. Only they can be the one to do this, and then it hurts people along the way who truly are seeing oh, this is an unhealed individual and they'll just quit. Those people won't stay and contend for that, and I think that's why a lot of old school women's ministry had such a bad reputation was because it was being led by women who were not called to it. They just wanted to control something.

Gianina: 40:19

You're stepping on my toes because I think I like just hearing that I feel like I lead from trauma sometimes and that savior complex of like if I don't fix it, who's going to fix this?

Natalie: 40:30

The best advice I ever got was Natalie. Sometimes you just have to let it burn, and I would say that that was the worst part of some of the things that I've seen is watching it burn and the Lord saying you will not run in there.

Gianina: 40:46

That's hard.

Kiley: 40:48

Well, and I wonder if some of that, too, is also. We've gotten to a place where women pride themselves on being busy and having all of these different things to do, and so I wonder if it's like that in the church too, like they're doing this, this and that, so they can say, like I'm busy, I'm doing this.

Natalie: 41:05

Listen one of my favorite preachers, becky Johnson. She just was on my podcast and when she brought up a wonderful point that women expect to be able to have it all. They stay home with their babies for 18 years and not be in any work environment, not do anything corporate, not have any meetings. They want to be able to be with their kids and not have to put them in kids care or hire a babysitter. And then the minute those kids graduate, they suddenly think they're going to get a corporate 500 job or end up in a high level corporate church where they can walk in and start calling the shots.

Natalie: 41:41

And the truth is is that that is not reality, that there are sacrifices that a lot of us, as women, are going to have to make to continue on in our careers, to be able to have authority in our 40s and 50s, to walk into a room and have relational equity, to actually bring change to the local church.

Natalie: 41:59

But staying home and trying to have the best of both worlds and then coming in and creating chaos in a church staff is also a very poor example of time management and calling. And so I want to encourage women if you're called into ministry, the Lord will take care of your kids. You don't have to sacrifice one or the other. My kids are flourishing in their relationship with the Lord and their family, and we have been a full-time ministry family since they were kids, and I just think that for a lot of women who then come into the church, they try to exert their authority and their power in the only one place. They feel like they have control, and that is not how we are to treat sheep, that is not how we are to lead the people of God, and this is why women get called Jezebels and this is why women are called controlling and emotional, and this is a huge problem in the local church and why a lot of men are scared to hire women. Well, they don't want to serve under women.

Gianina: 43:00

You know a lot of times they don't want to serve under a woman because of those exact reasons. So that totally makes sense. Well, I would love to know what are you most?

Natalie: 43:12

excited about with your book launch and kind of what's next for you with that. I am so excited for this just to go out to the world. I think it's going to open up conversations that we've all wanted to have but haven't known how to have them. It launches September 2nd, and so we're really in the early release days of this. Now.

Natalie: 43:27

I'm excited to see the world. I'll be in Canada, we're going to be at all different parts of the United States starting in August, and for my kids to be part of it, my daughter's friends are actually coming in on my podcast to talk about friendships in high school and the nuances of that, and so there's just so many layers to this conversation that have yet to be explored, and I'm excited to have some conversations with women in their 70s, all the way down to these little teenage girls who have actually a lot of wisdom. So I'm thrilled about that. But yeah, it's been a whirlwind three books in three years. I don't recommend it, but I do believe that the Lord is refining His bride, and women are going to be a huge part of bringing unity to the house as we heal together.

Gianina: 44:15

It's so, so good. I'm so excited for that too. So thank you so much for being on here, and is there anything else that you would want to share or anything we haven't covered that you'd want to talk about?

Natalie: 44:26

Oh, you guys have done an incredible job. It's been great to be with you all.

Gianina: 44:30

Awesome. Well, if you don't mind, I would love for you to pray for our listeners, particularly anybody who maybe is in that struggle place, either someone who's struggling in their relationships with women, maybe not being able to make friends, or someone who feels like they've just been hurt and they don't know how to navigate moving forward in the church.

Natalie: 44:50

Absolutely, god.

Natalie: 44:52

We just thank you so much for being the model of what a true friend is.

Natalie: 44:56

Father, you are the God who is not only the God of the universe, but you're our father and you're our friend, and I thank you that you modeled for us what selfless love was like when you sent us your son and God.

Natalie: 45:08

I pray, lord, that as we, as women, pursue friendship and deep, sacred sisterhood with one another safe sisterhood that we would be brave and bold and that we would be the hands and feet of Jesus, that we would be what we need, we would be what we want, god, that when women come into contact with us, that they would feel safe, that they would feel wanted, that they would feel invited, and that you would use even our deepest insecurities as ways of vulnerability to draw other women into knowing who you are and into community and into relationship with you.

Natalie: 45:39

And so, god, I pray for boldness. I pray that if there are lonely women listening to this now, that they would know that your eyes have never left them, that you sit with them, and then not yet of this friendship, they're desperate for God and I pray that you would bring women to them, god, be it at their jobs or church or their kids' playdates or schools, lord, that there would just be one woman, lord, that would reach out and remind them that they see them and that you see them. And I'm just so grateful, god, that you have built your people for community and friendship, and we love you in Jesus name. Amen.

Gianina: 46:09

Amen, Amen. Well, thank you so so much.

Kiley: 46:13

That was so good, natalie. Thank you so much for your honesty, your leadership and your willingness to let God use both the hard and the holy parts of your story. Friends, make sure to follow Natalie at at raised to stay on Instagram and mark your calendars. I don't even like women releases this September and you are not going to want to miss it. We'll link all the details in the show notes. If this episode today impacted you, make sure you share with a friend and follow along for more as we walk through life's victories and valleys together. And, as always, thank you for listening to Walkthrough, where we don't rush the journey but remind each other that God is right there in the valley walking us through. See you next time.